Norfolk Women

Steph Makins: 0:03

Welcome back Norfolk Enjoyers. I'm Steph.

Andrew Kitt: 0:06

And I'm Andrew.

Steph Makins: 0:07

And you're listening to the Norfolk and Good Enjoying Norfolk podcast. You can normally find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook or at enjoyingnorfolk.co.uk

Andrew Kitt: 0:20

Or roaming the streets of Norfolk

Steph Makins: 0:24

You make it sound like we're vagrants. Just generally enjoying Norfolk.

Andrew Kitt: 0:31

Yes.

Steph Makins: 0:31

When restrictions allow.

Andrew Kitt: 0:33

Of course, yeah.

Steph Makins: 0:35

We're not rulebreakers.

Andrew Kitt: 0:36

We're not.

Steph Makins: 0:36

No indeed. March is quite an exciting month if you are female, because it's Women's History Month

Andrew Kitt: 0:49

It is.

Steph Makins: 0:50

The eighth of March was International Women's Day. And this Sunday is Mother's Day.

Andrew Kitt: 0:56

Oh, no, only joking, I'm fully sorted on all those fronts.

Steph Makins: 1:02

Brilliant. So we thought we'd have a little look at some famous Norfolk women. And what we quickly discovered, well, to be honest discovered it- we knew this anyway - is that Norfolk produces quite a high caliber of woman. The bar's set high with Norfolk females. We're a tough lot. There are there are some fabulous names. So if we wanted to do a quick sort of name check of some of the more... the well known ones we've got warrior Queen Boudicca.

Andrew Kitt: 1:38

Going back a bit there

Steph Makins: 1:41

but also going she's you know, setting it high from the beginning. She set the bar high you know,

Andrew Kitt: 1:45

She sorted those Romans out didn't she?

Steph Makins: 1:47

She did for a while. Unfortunately it didn't last for her but we still remember her nationally and internationally. And if you go to the castle Museum, there's quite a lot about the Iceni, or I-ck-e-ni, culture, which was she was the warrior Queen of. Mother Julian of Norwich...

Andrew Kitt: 2:05

Of course. Yes. Yes. Who we've mentioned.

Steph Makins: 2:08

We did. We talked about her in the podcast episodes about books and literature because...

Andrew Kitt: 2:13

She she sealed herself up in a very tiny room and wrote the book, the Revelations of Divine Love.

Steph Makins: 2:20

Indeed, yes. She was the first woman to be published in English.

Andrew Kitt: 2:23

I don't know you were testing me today. Crikey!

Steph Makins: 2:28

Then, Edith Cavell. Edith Cavell, yeah, obviously, she was a World One... a World War One Nurse, and, and heroine who was unfortunately, shot by firing squad.

Andrew Kitt: 2:42

Yes.

Steph Makins: 2:44

And she comes from Swardston, just up the road. We've actually done a little bit of exploring the Edith Cavell trail, which is quite nice. Had a look at the church.

Andrew Kitt: 2:52

I think we mentioned a few times in some other of our podcasts - the walks.

Steph Makins: 2:56

Yeah.

Andrew Kitt: 2:57

And...

Steph Makins: 2:57

She was baptized there and her name is on the war memorial.

Andrew Kitt: 3:00

Yes. And she's buried at the Cathedral.

Steph Makins: 3:04

Yeah, her grave is at the Cathedral. Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Kitt: 3:08

Around the side, isn't it? Round the back the back end of the cathedral, there is her grave and there's a memorial, the outside on Tombland.

Steph Makins: 3:18

Over near Erpingham Gate, isn't it? Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. And she famously said something like, "Patriotism is not enough. You must not have any hate for anyone", or something like that. So a very wise woman. Anna Sewell, who we also discussed

Andrew Kitt: 3:38

We have. In our literature podcast,

Steph Makins: 3:40

We did because she wrote Black Beauty. She did and while we were talking about Anna

Andrew Kitt: 3:42

She did. Sewell, we completely forgot to mention that she actually not only did she come from Great Yarmouth, we kind of have that......born and lived for a bit in Great Yarmouth.

Steph Makins: 3:51

Yeah.

Andrew Kitt: 3:52

And the house is there and you can go to the house...

Steph Makins: 3:53

Yeah. But she actually wrote Black Beauty at a house in Old Catton - or Catton? in Norwich.

Andrew Kitt: 3:58

Yeah, Old Catton, I would think.

Steph Makins: 4:00

Now Sewell house, I think with a blue plaque, and you can go and see the house. Yeah, so we probably should have mentioned that in the previous episode. We omitted to mention that...

Andrew Kitt: 4:08

We shall go and see the house as well.

Steph Makins: 4:10

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Elizabeth Fry. Apparently she was a... Elizabeth fry was a major driving force between new legis... behind new legislation to make the treatment of prisoners more humane, and she was supported by Queen Victoria in her efforts. She was depicted on the Bank of England five pound note.

Andrew Kitt: 4:30

Very good.

Steph Makins: 4:31

All hail from Norfolk. So, so there. Elizabeth Fry. Also. We've got Olivia Coleman.

Andrew Kitt: 4:39

Yeah. Yes.

Steph Makins: 4:41

More recent name. Oscar winning, award winning. Yeah,

Andrew Kitt: 4:45

Yeah. All over the telly box.

Steph Makins: 4:52

Olive Edis, who I think is an interesting lady. So she was a photographer, a female photographer in the times when professional female photography wasn't really that commonplace, I think it's probably fair to say. And she had her first studio in Sheringham. That's probably even less commonplace at the time - a female photographer with a studio in Sheringham.

Andrew Kitt: 5:12

Yeah. Sure She photographed a lot of fishermen?

Steph Makins: 5:15

She did. Yes. We saw her exhibition... was it at the Cromer Museum?

Andrew Kitt: 5:19

We saw it at the Cromer one, but I think it was at the Castle as well.

Steph Makins: 5:22

Yeah, she did she she took pictures of local Norfolk fisherfolk, but she also took pictures royalty, politicians, influential women. And she was Britain's first official female war photographer in 1919. Yeah, wow. Yeah. Really, trailblazing?

Andrew Kitt: 5:44

I need to see more of that the images that she took actually.

Steph Makins: 5:47

Yeah. You have seen a lot. We've seen her exhibitions her work quite a lot. You're it's very I think her work is quite, there's quite a signature to it. Yeah, it's quite recognizable, but it's, it's almost like um, it's sort of documentary photography. Okay. Yeah. Which is, which presumably why she went on to do war photography, I haven't seen much of her war photographs actually.

Andrew Kitt: 6:08

Interesting to see.

Steph Makins: 6:09

Definitely worth exploring more. So just in that little sort of that that handful of women from Norfolk. There's some amazing names there.

Andrew Kitt: 6:19

Yeah, definitely.

Steph Makins: 6:23

What we thought we'd do this week, however, is talk about some famous some Norfolk women who are famous, but perhaps lesser known names than some of those that we just mentioned.

Andrew Kitt: 6:35

Yeah. I think that's very important, isn't it?

Steph Makins: 6:37

I think so. Because that, you know, a lot of people will know, obviously, about Boudicca, Mother Julian of Norwich, Edith Cavell, that sort of thing. Not so many will know about some of these other names, hopefully. So hopefully, you'll find them sort of interesting. Andrew, you've got a couple of very fabulous and famous Norfolk women that you wanted to mention.

Andrew Kitt: 6:56

I have. I have been yet again traveling back through time. Like Norfolk's very own Doctor Who.

Steph Makins: 7:05

Wonderful.

Andrew Kitt: 7:08

What a vision. The First Lady I'd like to mention is Margaret Elizabeth Foutaine.

Steph Makins: 7:17

Okay.

Andrew Kitt: 7:18

She was from Norwich. She was born in 1862 and died in 1940. But she's a butterfly expert.

Steph Makins: 7:28

Okay. Right.

Andrew Kitt: 7:30

And she basically traveled the world. Yeah. Studying, breeding, looking at larvae of butterfly.

Steph Makins: 7:38

Okay.

Andrew Kitt: 7:39

Yeah, but the interesting thing is, and now it relates back to many visits we've had to the Castle Museum.

Steph Makins: 7:43

Oh, yes.

Andrew Kitt: 7:43

Is that her life works, which is something like 22,000 butterflies. They're displayed in the Castle Museum.

Steph Makins: 7:51

Really?

Andrew Kitt: 7:51

Yeah.

Steph Makins: 7:52

That's probably their entire collection of butterflies isn't it?

Andrew Kitt: 7:54

Probably. Yeah.

Steph Makins: 7:55

22,000.

Andrew Kitt: 7:56

Yeah, yeah. So that's her collection and her sketchbooks are in the Natural History Museum in London.

Steph Makins: 8:03

Oh, really?

Andrew Kitt: 8:03

Yeah.

Steph Makins: 8:04

How fabulous. That's interesting.

Andrew Kitt: 8:06

But she was um... She apparently was fearless in her travels. Okay. And she only rode a horse. She didn't ride Oh, okay. After the two of them. sidesaddle. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And apparently, she had a traveling companion, a Syrian man. And he was called Khal l Neimy. I think. Okay. Yeah, so ry if I got the pronounciation w ong there. But yeah. And the c llection in the in the Norwich m seum is called the Fountaine- eimy Collection. After the two of them. And she traveled for many years with him. And apparently she donated a sealed box to the Castle Museum as well, which wasn't allowed to be opened until 1978.

Steph Makins: 8:50

Okay, that's very specific.

Andrew Kitt: 8:52

I know.

Steph Makins: 8:53

But she died in 1940

Andrew Kitt: 8:54

1940. Yeah.

Steph Makins: 8:55

And what did they find when they... did open it?

Andrew Kitt: 8:57

They opened it. Yeah. And inside were all her manuscripts. Handwritten manuscripts. Of all the journeys and everything so they know all about her life.

Steph Makins: 9:07

How fabulous. So a sortof butterfly leaning female Darwin almost.

Andrew Kitt: 9:12

Yeah.

Steph Makins: 9:12

Interesting. Sort of naturalist. Fabulous. Great. That's a really fabulous fantastic Norfolk woman.

Andrew Kitt: 9:17

That's a good one isn't it?

Steph Makins: 9:18

Very much so. Another fantastic Norfolk woman who I have heard of, but actually didn't quite realize how fabulous she was, is Amelia Opie. Yes, she's got a very understated statue on Opie Street above what was a Gelato shop.

Andrew Kitt: 9:40

Yeah. Still is. I think if you look up.

Steph Makins: 9:42

Yes.

Andrew Kitt: 9:42

Search.

Steph Makins: 9:43

No I don't know if the Gelato Shop is still there?

Andrew Kitt: 9:45

Yeah, it is. The statue's still there. So is the shop.

Steph Makins: 9:50

Yes, it's quite an understated simple little statue, isn't it? But while we were sort of doing a little bit of reading around for this episode, and for a post that we were doing on social media about International Women's Day, I read a bit more about Amelia Opie and it turns out that she was... so she was a poet and a writer.

Andrew Kitt: 10:09

Yes.

Steph Makins: 10:11

But quite sort of trailblazing in her work. Quite forward thinking. So a lot of her work featured things like themes about women's rights, but also anti slavery, because she was a prominent abolitionist.

Andrew Kitt: 10:24

Okay. Yeah.

Steph Makins: 10:25

Which were people that wanted to bring about the abolition of slavery. She worked with Anna Gurney to form a lady's anti slavery society in Norwich. Oh, yeah. And they organized a petition of almost 200,000 names that they presented to Parliament. Pretty impressive. Yeah. She... one of her works, was called 'The Black Man's Lament' or 'How to make sugar', and that was an anti slavery poem, which she published in 1826. The Slavery Abolition Act was passed in England in 1833. And in 1840, Opie went to the World Anti-Slavery Convention in London. And at the time, they painted... they have a commemorative painting of the convention.

Andrew Kitt: 11:13

Yeah, yeah.

Steph Makins: 11:14

Now, she was one of the few women to be included in this painting, which is a pretty big deal. Most of the painting is 97% men, and there's a tiny group of women in the bottom right hand corner. And among those is Amelia Opie,

Andrew Kitt: 11:29

and you can see it, I presume you can see this online and things like that.

Steph Makins: 11:31

Indeed. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so that's quite fantastic. So she was very, very forward thinking. Like her peers, Elizabeth Fry and Edith Cavell, she was a very kind person who thought of others as well as herself. Very altruistic. She died in 1853. And she is buried in Gildencroft Quaker Cemetery in Norwich, okay, which is somewhere we need to explore. Okay, and have a look at that. Who else have you been reading about this week?

Andrew Kitt: 12:03

Well, related to Amelia Opie, I've got to mention a Lucy Cecilia Brightwell.

Steph Makins: 12:09

Okay.

Andrew Kitt: 12:10

Now she was um, she was born in Norwich, and she actually lived at 3 Surrey Street. If you don't know it, it's the NatWest bank. Okay. So she lived there. Yeah. She produced a lot of etchings, and she had those in her father's father's book, which was called'Fauna of East Norfolk'. So okay, yeah. Might have to check that out. But mainly she did the biography of Amelia Opie. She was her friend and she did the did her biography.

Steph Makins: 12:35

Interesting. Fantastic.

Andrew Kitt: 12:39

Yeah, just taking you back to 1647 when Mary Chapman was born in Norwich. Mary Chapman, she is when you go along Bethel Street, you've got the old hospital there at Bethel Street. And she was she built that hospital. Not physically. But she built that hospital there. And it was the first purpose... first purpose built hospital for mental health in England.

Steph Makins: 13:05

Okay,

Andrew Kitt: 13:06

yeah,

Steph Makins: 13:06

That's really interesting.

Andrew Kitt: 13:07

So you've got

Steph Makins: 13:08

opposite the cathedral behind that wall. Is that it?

Andrew Kitt: 13:12

Yeah. Well, if you're on Bethel Street, yeah. And you've got what is the police the Norwich police. And then you've got the new school, which was the old fire station. It's opposite the old fire station. That building there.

Steph Makins: 13:24

And it was the first hospital dedicated to Along there... mental health provision?

Andrew Kitt: 13:26

Yeah.

Steph Makins: 13:27

Again, forward thinking...

Andrew Kitt: 13:29

For the poor mainly as well. who couldn't get help otherwise? Yeah, definitely. And then I'll bring a bit further forward to a lady called Sarah Glover. Who was lived at 91 Pottergate.

Steph Makins: 13:43

Oh, I like this. I like this story.

Andrew Kitt: 13:46

Yes,

Steph Makins: 13:47

This is a good one.

Andrew Kitt: 13:47

Now she was she was a musician and a teacher. Yeah. And I think she set up her own school in in Norwich. But she wanted to simplify learning music, and she sorted out a notation system, yeah. for teaching, Yes, for teaching music. And it was called the

Steph Makins: 14:04

for teaching music? Sol-fa ladder, the Norwich Sol-fa ladder. Okay. Okay. And it was published in 1837 by Jarrolds. Yeah, yes. And that sort of moved on. Apparently it was lent to somebody a little bit naughty and they messed around with it without her permission and turned into what is commonly known now as the Tonic Sol-fa Notation, which is which is the do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, ti, do From the sound of Music! That's a really great fact. I love that.

Andrew Kitt: 14:45

It really is. And from Norwich.

Steph Makins: 14:47

I love the fact it was called the Norwich Sol-fa ladder then it was obviously changed but I love the I love the fact that its origins were in Norwich, and she did... Did you say she lived on Pottergate?

Andrew Kitt: 14:56

She lived 91 Pottergate and I think there is again a plaque there. And you can see the house and everything so it's really nice that you can hear about this and then go along and look at where these people lived.

Steph Makins: 15:06

So if you're a fan of the Sound... or if you're a fan of music, if you're a fan of the Sound of Music, it you're a fan of history, local his ory, if you're a fan of wom n in history, then that is a rea ly fantastic story. I love tha. That's brilliant. Thank you ndrew.

Andrew Kitt: 15:21

Next up is mentioned three ladies. The first is Mabel Clarkson. And Mabel Clarkson is really interesting she was for many years the only woman in the council chamber. Yeah, she was a Liberal in her political leanings. But then she moved on to be the second Lady Mayor of Norwich in 1930.

Steph Makins: 15:45

yeah, and who was, Do you know who the first was?

Andrew Kitt: 15:47

Yes, I do. I do. The First Lady Mayor. And you'll know the name is Ethel Mary Colman. Okay, in 1923.

Steph Makins: 16:05

and she was the first Lady Mayor of Norwich? Fantastic.

Andrew Kitt: 16:06

First Lady Mayor. And sort of on the political side of things, and the the first woman MP in Norfolk was Dorothy Jewson.

Steph Makins: 16:18

Do you mean women MP generally? Not just in Norfolk? She was from

Andrew Kitt: 16:21

the first woman MP for Norfolk. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, and she was then when she was elected, there was only seven in the UK.

Steph Makins: 16:30

Okay. So what year was that?

Andrew Kitt: 16:32

She was Labour, by the way. And that was in 1923, as well.

Steph Makins: 16:35

Wow, that's amazing.

Andrew Kitt: 16:36

When Ethel Mary Colman was the first Mayor

Steph Makins: 16:41

That's quite early doors. I love that about Norwich and Norfolk. Again, we mentioned this before, when we were talking about the literature, books and authors, we're a progressive little place aren't we?

Andrew Kitt: 16:50

I know it's quite amazing. When you dig down.

Steph Makins: 16:51

There's got to be something in the soil, no pun intended, but there must be something in the air because we yeah, we really do set standards here. That's pretty impressive.

Andrew Kitt: 17:01

Yeah, it really is. Right? Isn't it? I think she was... the Jewsons... it was a big Norfolk family as well. Coal merchants, I think.

Steph Makins: 17:07

Okay.

Andrew Kitt: 17:08

Yeah,

Steph Makins: 17:08

Brilliant. Because we are talking about Norfolk women in this episode, we wanted to talk to an actual Norfolk woman... not not just me. Not me.

Andrew Kitt: 17:21

You're very famous.

Steph Makins: 17:25

But before we get into that, and my Gran, lots of we know lots of Norfolk women. But before we get into those Norfolk women coming forward a bit I wanted to speak to, to mention a more recent, famous Norfolk woman, and she this quite astounding, actually, I didn't really know quite how fabulous she was. I knew of her. And that is Cathy Dennis, Cathy Dennis. So pop sensation from the 90s or late 80s, early 90s. And that's kind of I sort of knew she did that. And I sort of know, I knew she did some writing but I didn't quite realize just how incredible she she was. So just to sort of set the scene a bit. So Cathy Dennis was, she went to Taverham High School. And when she was discovered at the time, she was working at Norwich Union, and she sort of started as a vocalist with D-Mob with their their single 'Come on and get my love'. You might remember a couple of solo hits herself that did really really well. But where she's really found fame and and prowess is um actually writing pop songs.

Andrew Kitt: 18:29

Yeah, okay.

Steph Makins: 18:30

Okay, so she's written eight UK number ones, and she's won an incredible five Ivor Novello Awards.

Andrew Kitt: 18:37

Really?!

Steph Makins: 18:39

That's pretty impressive, isn't it?

Andrew Kitt: 18:40

Did not know that.

Steph Makins: 18:41

But listen to some of the songs that she either wrote or co wrote. Okay. 'Can't get you out of my head'. Kylie Minogue. Co-wrote that which obviously a massive, massive hit. Rachel Stevens 'Sweet dreams my LA ex'. She wrote. She wrote several songs for people like S Club Seven. She wrote Britney Spears hit song 'Toxic'.

Andrew Kitt: 19:03

Really?

Steph Makins: 19:04

Yeah, yeah. And she also wrote um Katy Perry's smash hit 'I kissed a girl'. She co-wrote it, I should say, I kissed a girl, yeah. So phenomenal. So she's had an absolutely stellar career in music. And in 2006, she actually won the UK music industry's Woman of the Year award. There you go. Cathy Dennis. From Norwich. Fabulous.

Andrew Kitt: 19:28

Well, Taverham.

Steph Makins: 19:35

So we mentioned just now that we were going to have a chat with a bona fide Norfolk woman. And so we're going to have a little chat with Briony De'Ath, who is Norfolk born and bred, and a Norfolk businesswoman and publican. Alongside her husband Nick, she owns and runs a lot of pubs within Norwich City Centre. We thought we'd catch up Briony and just find out a bit about what it's like to to be a Norfolk woman and also to obviously be working within her industry over the past year.

Briony De'Ath: 20:15

Hi

Steph Makins: 20:16

How are you?

Briony De'Ath: 20:18

Yeah. Good. Thank you. Yes. Enjoying feeling like we're finally getting to the end of what has been a very long year.

Steph Makins: 20:28

Indeed, indeed.

Andrew Kitt: 20:30

Yes, so Briony, I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit more about yourself. And what you do here in lovely Norfolk.

Briony De'Ath: 20:37

Okay. So I have lived in Norfolk my entire life. In fact, I think I've lived in about a three mile radius for my entire life. I think I think driving out from Norwich to Hethersett is a sort of wild exploration. So I grew up in Eaton. And with my Mum and Dad when I was very young and then just my Mum when I was a bit older. Went to school - went to Colman School. Oh, good choice. Then CNS. And then I met my Husband Nick, when I was quite young, and we've been married for nearly 26 years now. We've got two grown up children. Joe, our son is 24 and actually got married last year. And he's going to make us - very excitingly - Grandparents this coming June.

Steph Makins: 21:41

Congratulations! How exciting!

Briony De'Ath: 21:44

Thank you. Yeah. So fast forwarding me there by generation. Thanks. Thanks for that Joe. Our daughter Lydia... and Joe actually runs.... We've got pubs, which I'll come on to talk about... but Joe actually runs one of those. Lydia, our daughter is 22. And actually, she left school and then decided to go back on herself. She's done loads of work and traveling for the last four years, but she actually started a degree course in Developmental Psychology at the UEA last September. So fantastic, but been a slightly odd year, obviously. She's barely set foot on the campus. But one of the one of the things we've done to keep ourselves entertained over the last year is endless walks. And she's certain that she walked around the UEA lake more times that she's been to a lecture or anything on campus.

Steph Makins: 22:34

As we all have, I think.

Briony De'Ath: 22:41

My... from leaving school, I didn't really know what I wanted to be when I grew up, and I'm still not totally sure. But Nick was involved in what is our longest standing pub. So I actually met him at The Unthank when I was a customer. And I was actually there on his first shift that he worked. So how romantic. Yeah. So we met there. And then he was working there. And then when I when I had the children, basically, that was sort of my trip my path back into a career was part time, first of all, when the children were very little, and then working there being involved with all of the business. Over the years, we've taken on other pubs and a few that have come and gone along the way. But we now have The Unthank, the Trafford Arms, the Chamber's Cocktail Company, and the William & Florence, which is the one our son runs, and, excitingly, sometime this spring, hopefully, when we're allowed to open in May, we will also be opening The Red Lion, Bishopgate.

Steph Makins: 23:48

Fabulous. A new venture for you.

Andrew Kitt: 23:52

Yes. Beautiful, beautiful pub that isn't it?

Briony De'Ath: 23:54

It is gorgeous. It is such a fantastic location. It's one of those pubs that whenever we mentioned it to anybody, they say, "Oh, the one on the river that's so lovely". I've learned so much about the history of it - it's right where Kett's Rebellion happened, So Kett's men, stopped up the hill, and then they literally came across the river on that bit of the River Wensum. So they probably came across Bishopgate Bridge, which is right outside the pub.

Steph Makins: 24:22

It's a super old bridge, isn't it?

Briony De'Ath: 24:25

It is it is beautiful. So we've been working there with the Great Hospital who actually owns the site. So they've been fantastically supportive. And they've done lots and lots of work to the sort of fabric of the building because we all want it to be something that will be around for a long time. And something that would be like the heart of that sort of community area around there.

Steph Makins: 24:51

Obviously, working within the pub and hospitality industry. How has your experience of the past year been Briony?

Briony De'Ath: 25:01

So we were actually reflecting yesterday on kind of this time last year where we were all watching the news and wondering what was going to happen, and how, you know, it was terrifying, frankly, not knowing what was going to happen. When we got the order, we, you know, sat glued to the TV and got the order to close as of a few hours later, we spent that weekend in shock, really, wondering what how we were going to survive what was gonna happen, and we then thought it would be for a few weeks. But once furlough was announced, with that was basically the most massive relief, obviously, our main concern was our staff. We just didn't have enough money to carry on paying people endless amounts. But once that was announced, and we had over 70 staff on our payroll last year, and we've got a few changes that we're by and large, everybody is still with us, which is just amazing and fantastic. They've all been so resilient, they bounce back. And every time we've reopened or closed, and there's new regulations and new rules to face, they've been absolutely brilliant. So we're, we're so proud of them, and how they've kind of got through all of this and enabled us to get through it all together, and still be ready, ready and raring to reopen in a few weeks time.

Andrew Kitt: 26:30

You made quite a few changes, didn't you obviously to the pubs didn't you?

Steph Makins: 26:34

Yeah.

Briony De'Ath: 26:35

Yeah, I mean, adapting to rules. I mean, we've, we've done a lot of work on our outside spaces where we've got them... so at the William and Florence, we have basically... in fact, there's still stuff happening there, we have turned the gardens... a lot people don't know, it's actually got a garden, which is down in level from Unthank Road, the pub is set on a hill. So the front bit people would recognize and that's been really popular. But down below was the sort of grassy area that we've essentially covered half of that, and we're now having new sort of flooring, flooring outside replacing the grass with something more suitable. And that Yeah, that was an amazing addition for us, especially when we got to December when you couldn't meet anybody from outside your household indoors. We had some incredibly sort of hardy customer who braved, and literally that outside and while it was snowing. The day we reopened in December coincided with the first snow of the year, you couldn't make up it up really could you? Yeah. And at the Unthank, we've had for a number of years a courtyard at the back. So that's been really well used. And we've added some sort of decking and what have you in the in the back in the garden. So that's also been really popular. The Trafford out there, we don't have a huge amount of outdoor space. But again, the customers are just so keen to support us, which we really appreciate. I mean, yes, they yes, they'd like to come and have something to eat and drink. But I think sometimes they're doing it as much for our benefit as they are for their own. So we created what we call the 'Bamboo Boozer' at the back of the pub by screening off some areas have been absolutely brilliant adapting to it.

Andrew Kitt: 28:22

Yeah,

Steph Makins: 28:22

Oh, that's really good. Yeah, I actually I visited the Unthank, just before Christmas, and sat outside and had a meal with some friends. And it was wonderful. And with your heaters that you had there. I was concerned, obviously, that we'd be freezing. And I was prepared to sit in my coat and scarf all evening. And actually, for at least half the evening, I didn't have my coat on. It was really quite warm and nice. It was lovely.

Briony De'Ath: 28:44

It's quite nice and sheltered. But yeah, yeah, I think you know, we do have a sort of a culture in this country of people kind of getting on with it. When we when we told what we have to do, we just get on with it and make the best of it. And that's really what what we've tried to do. You've got to approach it when we knew we were going to be closed for months last year. When we got to this sort of towards the end of that stage, we had to decide were we kind of throwing money and time and effort into being ready to reopen. Or you either do that or you throw in the towel really. And lots of lots of other businesses as well. It's just had to you know, what the expressions pivot isn't it? And so they've had to adapt and find new ways of doing things and ways to get a bit of money through the door while they can. But overall, it was it was not our best year, shall we say. But it could have been a lot worse. And we do feel really grateful that our staff and our customers and all the sort of supply chain all kind of rallied together to make sure that hopefully we are on the home straight now. And we will be learning to live with this rather than trying to avoid it. Yeah, we're well placed to do it.

Steph Makins: 30:02

Obviously, you touched on a few of your future plans with the the very exciting Red lion at Bishopgate opening later this year - quite soon this year, hopefully. So how do you sort of see the rest of this year panning out for you guys?

Briony De'Ath: 30:17

It is a bit tricky to know at the moment because the guidance on... as to how you actually open whether it's outside in April or inside in May hasn't actually been published on the Government website as yet. We're drawn to trying to work on what was in place last year and making assumptions about it. But we're really hoping that the expression in the in the hospitality industry and retailers I think is 'pent up demand' is the key word. So lots of lots of us who can't wait to get out and meet up with people. So I think we're definitely hoping for a great summer. We all learned a bit last year I think about how being outside is actually really nice. And as you said Steph, you know, if you're sort of prepared to brave the elements then there's actually a lot to be said for it. It just sort of reconnect you to nature and the world.

Andrew Kitt: 31:15

Obviously being a podcast about Norfolk, can you tell us about your favorite Norfolk places and things to do?

Briony De'Ath: 31:23

It's so difficult! I had a feeling I had a feeling you'd ask me this question. I love a bit more of a mooch kind of a day. I'm not one for... I prefer a beach when it's empty for example. So I'm the one who'll be there when it's raining or blowing a gale rather than on a sunny Saturday when everybody else chooses to go there. And I quite like exploring places you know, when they're a bit closed. So later in the day or on a Sunday or whatever. I love the beaches at Waxham and Horsey because although they are busy you do... you don't have to walk very far to feel that you've got you know near enough got the coastline to yourself. We love when our kids were younger, we loved camping, we'd go on camping holidays, that was that was our default holiday. But we in we've been to France and various places, but in Stiffkey just being on, I don't know if you know, the campsite, the edge just up the hill from... actually it's another Red Lion pub isn't it? Up the hill from there and you can walk over there and you're straight on to the marshes and the creeks and the kids crabbing. And you know, just the freedom that it gives you can see for miles and you know, the kids can run off doing that they have such fond memories of that kind of thing as well. But personally, I'm as I say I'm a little bit I have a little bit of a tendency to be a bit of a hermit but when I'm out and about I quite like exploring on my own and we went to Bristol a few years ago and as part of going there we've downloaded some sort of... I dragged Nick around on this kind of walking tour. So you know finding out about old buildings and you know random street signs and that kind of thing. So over the last couple of years and lockdown has given me more time than I might otherwise have had. And I've actually done that with using you know websites in Norwich and Norfolk. Little routes where you can walk all through the city and there's one for example which shows you clocks. There's all different clock faces. If you start to look up and around at buildings in Norwich. There are so many... My problem is that I'm not very good at remembering the facts once I've done the walk. I can walk round again, but if I were to point to a clock for you, I would not be able to tell anything about it. I'd be able to tell you it was there like a new adventure for me.

Steph Makins: 33:53

Like a permanent state of new realization. I love it.

Briony De'Ath: 34:02

I think I think a lot of that stems from I grew up most of my childhood there was just me and my Mum and our dogs and we used to just my Mum was sort of kind of she'd get home from work and she'd say 'do you fancy doing this today?' so we go off we drive to the beach and take the dogs for what... there wouldn't be a soul around or she when she was at school she had tutoring in Cathedral Close. So it was one of those things she'd say "I'll take you and point out all the places I used to go to" and you know all of that kind of thing. So getting to know Cathedral Close a bit more has been handy for me obviously.

Andrew Kitt: 34:34

It's right there isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Steph Makins: 34:40

Yeah, I love a walking tour. I'm obsessed with doing because I like I love being outside. And I love activity being active. So for me combining those two things. So doing the daily walk during lockdown has actually been no problem. I've actually I could walk forever, basically. So and I think looking up is Yeah, it's so... With Norwich, all you have to do is look up and it's another world, there's so much beauty to be seen and wonder. It's great.

Andrew Kitt: 35:05

Definitely. Yeah.

Briony De'Ath: 35:06

Yeah, I feel I just feel really, really pleased that lots of people are discovering that because that's the only thing we're allowed to do. But for those of us that were already doing it, we're now getting to share it with a whole nother set of people who probably would have driven somewhere in the past.

Steph Makins: 35:22

Trailblazers, early adopters.

Briony De'Ath: 35:26

Something like that, but there are some amazing there are some amazing, you know, these kind of fact sheets you can either download them on the phone or print them out before you go, or do what I normally do, which is set out following one and then think,"Oh, that looks like a coffee shop over there. I think I'll divert in that direction", and then end up going somewhere completely different. The other wonderful thing that we've done, and we're really spoiled for these kinds of places in Norfolk is, we, when our children were younger, we had several amazing Christmases or sometimes after Christmas in the new year with other families. So mostly sort of near the coast. But just renting a big house and being able to cook, just mucking in and playing together. So I'm really hoping that we're allowed to do that we keep trying to rearrange... but between uni and work and people moving and in my case, people getting married and having babies, we haven't we haven't been able to do it yet. But maybe we'll be doing it with a whole generation of grandchildren.

Steph Makins: 36:29

It's been quite the year for you, hasn't it then really with weddings, and now you're going to be grandparents and lockdown and a new pub, even though it's sort of being lockdown, you've been quite busy Briony.

Briony De'Ath: 36:40

I do think I think there are positives from 2020. And that's you've listed some of them. So yeah, it's certainly not been, you know, not been filled with doom and gloom. So yeah, we we ask that we tend to try to be optimistic people try and look to the best of something. I mean, what else can you do really ? You've just got to you just got to kind of look forward and appreciate what you've got, what's on your doorstep, what's free, easy to get to... And count your blessings, I suppose.

Andrew Kitt: 37:13

Definitely.

Steph Makins: 37:13

Yeah, I think that's a really good way of looking at things. Thank you very much.

Briony De'Ath: 37:21

Lovely to talk to you both.

Steph Makins: 37:23

Thank you. I'm sure we'll speak again soon. Meanwhile, take care and say hello to Nick for us.

Andrew Kitt: 37:29

Yes, we look forward. We look forward to getting out to The Red Lion. Obviously I'd like to thank two websites that I sort of came across when I was having a look about famous Norfolk women. The first is the norfolkwomeninhistory.com website which is produced by the Norfolk Record Office, the Norfolk Library and Information Service and the Norfolk Museums and Archaeological Service.

Steph Makins: 37:56

Fabulous.

Andrew Kitt: 37:57

It is a it's a fabulous website. So you've got to check it out. It goes through a timeline.

Steph Makins: 38:02

Yeah.

Andrew Kitt: 38:04

Some women who are born in Norfolk or came to live in Norfolk Yeah, yeah, and you can go through that and and

Steph Makins: 38:10

There are so many interesting stories aren't there?

Andrew Kitt: 38:13

Really is.

Steph Makins: 38:14

The purpose of the website it says it's to promote and celebrate the role that Norfolk Norfolk women have played in the history of our county and beyond, so a perfect read for Women's History Month. While you were doing your research, and this ties in with something that Briony was saying, we love a... We love a walk don't we? We love a guided walk.

Andrew Kitt: 38:34

Yeah.

Steph Makins: 38:36

Especially since it's pretty much all we could do at the oment and you found a fabulous one that ties in with what we've been speaking about, haven't you?

Andrew Kitt: 38:43

I did. I did. Yeah. It's called the Women's History Walk Around Norwich.

Steph Makins: 38:49

Awesome. That's that's right up my street.

Andrew Kitt: 38:52

I actually found it on I found it on it was actually a PDF.

Steph Makins: 38:55

Yeah? You can download the walk.

Andrew Kitt: 38:57

You can download the walk.

Steph Makins: 38:58

Nice. I like it.

Andrew Kitt: 38:58

I've got it here printed off ready to go.

Steph Makins: 39:00

We can attach the PDF link to our podcast listing on norfolkandgoodpodcast.co.uk so if you're interested in downloading it for yourself, when you've listened to this, we'll put the link on there and you can have a look at it yourselves.

Andrew Kitt: 39:12

Yeah, probably the best place because I could only find... I couldn't find the actual website that it was on

Steph Makins: 39:17

Cos where did it come from?

Andrew Kitt: 39:18

It came from the Herstoria magazine, actually in um, the winter of 2009.

Steph Makins: 39:24

You don't know if it's still going?

Andrew Kitt: 39:25

No, but the actual walk is still there. So we'll give you the give it

Steph Makins: 39:29

takes you around Norwich and you have a look at it and basically covers

Andrew Kitt: 39:33

There's a map in there and everything. And it covers yet numerous people. It also covers sort of architecture as well.

Steph Makins: 39:41

Okay.

Andrew Kitt: 39:43

Which is kind of like feminine orientated as well, which is interesting. But yeah, it's a good few pages

Steph Makins: 39:51

What a good thing to do this month. Yes, the Women's History Walk in Norwich.

Andrew Kitt: 39:55

20 stops.

Steph Makins: 39:56

Fabulous. Well, we will definitely we're definitely going to do that. Andrew

Andrew Kitt: 40:00

Well, definitely it'll be really interesting so it kind of links in to what Briony was saying

Steph Makins: 40:05

It does. Yeah. Well, yeah, we will. We'll tell her about this. So as ever, I hope you've enjoyed today's episode, you probably got the impression that there is so much more that we could have packed in. I mean, if you have a look at norfolkwomeninhistory.com it's just the amount of interesting Norfolk women and these are, these are the ones whose stories have been told. There's also so many women, like we jokingly mentioned, your Mum and your sisters and my Gran and, and her sisters and her mother before and that there are lots of women who live in Norfolk or born in Norfolk who have fantastic stories to tell that won't be told like these women. So yeah, so it's really interesting. I think. If you have any comments or feedback about anything that we've spoken about today, do get in touch. The way you can contact us the usual way, at enjoyingnorfolk.co.uk or also, comment under one of our social media posts.

Andrew Kitt: 40:57

Yes,

Steph Makins: 40:57

Yeah, absolutely. We're always about on social media. We hope you've enjoyed listening to us. If you do listen to this podcast at Apple or Spotify, don't forget to subscribe so you know when the next episodes are out, and also maybe leave us a review if you enjoyed it. If you didn't enjoy it, then we are a completely different podcast. Give them the poor reviews. otherwise,we hope you stay well. And we look forward to speaking with you again soon.

Andrew Kitt: 41:26

Yes, definitely.

Steph Makins: 41:27

Bye bye.